about ISRAEL....

[slk320]

what about the simple reply of "F them"? While not the most politically eloquent, Israel was attacked by multiple enemies, from multiple sides, in an effort to eradicate it, destroy and kill the Jews and reclaim the land. Their efforts were thwarted and Israel was able to, despite enormous odds, prevail and drive the attackers back. Should it be: "To the victors go the spoil?" Further, Israel maintains their presence in the disputed territories due to safety reasons - to create buffer zones for further attacks. Seems appropriate. If Hezbollah and Hamas don't stop their nonsense then at some point the Israelis are going to forget their measured civility and get really pissed... seems they are on their way now. Sounds like you are giving legitimacy to muslim terrorism against Israel RStone...which i assume was not your intention.

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[slk320]

Originally Posted by rstone

would you care to share with us what your Ph.D is in??

I have a Doctorate in Jurisprudence. Whats yours in?

[Stander]

Originally Posted by AMGod

That is pure fantasy. The more land Israeli's return, the closer the rocket launchers get and more Israeli civilians die.

Firstly, there can never be a buffer zone large enough to protect Israelis from their enemies; secondly, Hizbullah rockets are largely defensive and are currently being used in retaliation for Israeli airstrikes; and thirdly, so long as disputes over issues of irredentism and self-determination remain unresolved in the Levant, the violence will continue.

Unfortunately the solution is not so simple or quick as disarmament or defeat.

Originally Posted by AMGod

...Their current leader has demonstrated his lack of leadership in how to run a war. Many innocent Jews are paying for his military blunders...

Certainly Olmert has wavered in terms of committing the IDF to a full-scale ground offensive in Lebanon. However, the problems for the Israelis are more technical than anything, namely: (a) the RMA's irrelevance to guerrilla combat; (b) the IDF's combat experience with poorly equipped, trained, and led Palestinian militants whose rocks and bullets cannot pierce Israeli tank armour; (c) the IDF's reliance on "collective punishment" to achieve national security objectives; and (d) indecisive strategy and inappropriate tactics to achieve the overall goals of the current campaign.

Rather, innocent Israelis are "paying" for these unresolved disputes.

Originally Posted by AMGod

4 months ago Netanyahu ran a campaign predicting this flash point. He was called a fear monger. Here we are.The only diplomacy Islamofascist terrorist respond to is death by force. PERIOD.

While I believe he committed war crimes under his tenure as a senior IDF officer, Ariel Sharon would have probably handled this current situation the most delicately.

Actually the "Islamofascists" respond to having their lands returned and having their unlawfully imprisoned kin returned to them.

This crisis is far too complicated for a single post, but such black-and-white viewpoints such as yours are part of the problem not the solution... unless you are prepared to personally murder every Palestinian, Syrian, Iranian, and Lebanese person, but I don't think you are.

[revstriker]

Originally Posted by rstone

Since your such an expert and know more than Mr. Robert Pape, would you care to share with us what your Ph.D is in??

Mine is in real life. :

First off, Israel continues to control a small area called Shebaa Farms, which Lebanon and Syria claim to be Lebanese territory. Israel's annexation of Shebaa Farms, the Golan Heights are two of the main reasons why Hezbollah claims it has continued to attack

In fact in in 2000, Syria offered full recognition and peace in exchange for a complete return to the pre-1967 borders, which Israel refused. In a new report not to long ago, Bashar al-Assad (President of Syria) said that Hezbollah and the Palestinian groups would "by definition fade away" once a regional peace settlement had been achieved. Assad's comment echoed another he made in an interview with the London-based al-Wasat weekly in August 1999, a year before he became president of Syria, in which he said that Hezbollah's fighters would return to civilian life "when the causes that led to the resistance are gone."

Assad was also quoted as saying "As long as the Syrian-Israeli track of the peace process remains stalled, Hezbollah will be permitted to maintain its military footing in Lebanon. However, if a full peace deal were to be concluded between Syria and Israel, followed by Lebanon and Israel, which included open borders and diplomatic exchanges, Hezbollah would have no choice but to dismantle its military wing, the Islamic Resistance, and channel its anti-Israel energies in non-violent directions."

Even after Israel withdrew from Lebanon in 2000, Lebanon disputed Israel's compliance with UN Resolution 425. Lebanon claims that the Shebaa farms area was actually Lebanese, and that the Israelis should therefore withdraw from there as well. Lebanon asserted that the UN certification of the Israeli withdrawal was "invalid," because of Lebanon's claim to the Shebaa Farms.

Lebanese officials have repeatedly pointed to land deeds, stamped by the Lebanese government, that were held by a number of area residents area in the 1940s and 1950s.

I think it's smart that Israel doesn't believe Bashar al-Assad. After all, he offers ZERO proof, and ZERO incentive for Israel to give up this strategically important piece of land. And while we're quoting Arab leaders on their thoughts, how about Hassan Ezzedin, the leader of Hezbollah who said "If they go from Sheba'a, we will not stop fighting them. Our goal is to liberate the 1948 borders of Palestine...[Jews] can go back to Germany or wherever they came from.”

And to what country the Shebaa Farms area actually belongs to (Syria vs. Lebanon) is certainly not solved by the deeds. According to a Lebanese newspaper, the deeds were "handwritten and signed on a yellowing piece of paper in pencil and ink." Moreover, it is quite common for Lebanese to own land in Syria, and vice versa. Also, the Lebanese newspaper Dar Al-Hayat reported that most in Lebanon had never heard of the Farms and that the issue over the Farms was created to Justify Resistance operations. Syria, although claiming the the land belonged to Lebanon has not provided one document to prove it, and refuses to define it's border with Lebanon. Only one map shows this area as being part of Lebanon, and that map was proven a forgery. Every other map shows the land as being part of Syria including Lebanese Army Maps from the 1960s.

And the UN has agreed with Israel in that this area is not covered by resolution 425.

So let's see if I understand all this...... Israel gives up control of a strategic piece of land, and for it they get.... what? They get Hezbollah continuing to threaten them, and continuing their terrorist actions against them. Should they not have learned ANYTHING about the withdrawal in 2000, and the most recent withdrawal from Gaza??

[revstriker]

Originally Posted by Stander

Firstly, there can never be a buffer zone large enough to protect Israelis from their enemies;

There can never be a zone large enought to completely protect you from your enemies, but there certainly can be an area big enough to improve your security. Certainly there is strategic imporatance in the positions Hezbollah has taken in the south of Lebanon. This equals increased risk for Israel.

Hizbullah rockets are largely defensive and are currently being used in retaliation for Israeli airstrikes

Oh, you mean the Israeli airstrikes that were in "retaliation" for Hezbollah invading their country and killing and kidnapping their soldiers??

[rstone]

Originally Posted by revstriker

I think it's smart that Israel doesn't believe Bashar al-Assad. After all, he offers ZERO proof, and ZERO incentive for Israel to give up this strategically important piece of land.

Zero incentive?? I don't call full recognition and peace "ZERO incentive."

Originally Posted by revstriker

Hassan Ezzedin, the leader of Hezbollah who said "If they go from Sheba'a, we will not stop fighting them. Our goal is to liberate the 1948 borders of Palestine...

First, Hassan Ezzedin is a spokesperson and not the leader. Second, that statement backs Mr. Robert Pape's conclusion that this conflict is solely over land disputes.

Originally Posted by revstriker

And to what country the Shebaa Farms area actually belongs to (Syria vs. Lebanon) is certainly not solved by the deeds.

According to Israeli scholar Asher Kaufman, French mandatory records clearly show the Shebaa Farms as Lebanese in the 1920s and 1930s, but sloppy border delineations permitted Syria to encroach on the territory over the following decades. By 1967, the Farms were under de facto Syrian control; thus when Israel invaded, it seized the land from Syria.

Despite the ongoing territorial dispute over the Farms, the nationality of the area’s residents has never been questioned. Since the days of the mandate, the owners and residents of the 14 farms have all been legally Lebanese. Likewise, the town of Shebaa, from which the farms derive their name, is universally accepted as part of Lebanon.

In addition to self-identifying as Lebanese, the Farms’ residents insist that their land has been Lebanese for generations. Since at least the 1950s, taxes collected in the area were paid to the Lebanese government, and a large amount of documentary evidence dating as far back as the 1930s places the farms legally under Lebanese jurisdiction. This evidence includes bills of sale, title deeds, and even documents from Syrian customs agencies - proof that this designation was not a unilateral Lebanese move.

At the time of the Israeli withdrawal in 2000, the international community acknowledged that there was ambiguity over the nationality of the Shebaa Farms.

On 28 November 2005, a step was made in this direction at the Euro-Mediterranean Summit in Barcelona, during which Syrian Foreign Minister Farouk al-Sharaa announced plans to officially concede the Farms to Lebanon.

No actions have followed his announcement, and though some believe that a diplomatic solution may yet conclusively end Israeli occupation of Lebanese land, Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert, in an interview with the Times on 3 August 2006, poured cold water on this prospect. Asked about whether the Farms would form part of a deal to end the Israeli-Lebanese conflict, he responded: "As far as I am concerned it is entirely off the table."

Originally Posted by revstriker

Every other map shows the land as being part of Syria including Lebanese Army Maps from the 1960s.

Regardless of who technically owns this land, the fact still remains that Hezbollah's objective is to remove Israel from Sheeba Farms, and Golan Heights Area. Again this is a land dispute.

Originally Posted by revstriker

And the UN has agreed with Israel in that this area is not covered by resolution 425.

Lebanon disputs Israel's compliance with UN Resolution 425. Lebanon claims that the Shebaa farms area was actually Lebanese, and that the Israelis should therefore withdraw from there as well. Lebanon asserts that the UN certification of the Israeli withdrawal was "invalid," because of Lebanon's claim to the Shebaa Farms.

Originally Posted by revstriker

So let's see if I understand all this...... Israel gives up control of a strategic piece of land, and for it they get.... what?

What they got was two governments telling Israel that the land disputes are not settled and they will continue to resist Israel's occupation of land until these land disputes are settled.

[KosherBenz]

Originally Posted by rstone

Zero incentive?? I don't call full recognition and peace "ZERO incentive."

You are terribily confused. You really think syria or Iran want peace with Israel? They would rather kill every single non-muslim in there, even if they gave them back the land.

Lets get serious here for a second...

[rstone]

Originally Posted by revstriker

you mean the Israeli airstrikes that were in "retaliation" for Hezbollah invading their country and killing and kidnapping their soldiers??

Thanks for sharing the Israeli version.

Now lets see what the international press has to say about this... "this started when Israeli troops were ambushed on Lebanon's side of the border with Israel."

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/HG15Ak02.html

[rstone]

Originally Posted by KosherBenz

You really think syria or Iran want peace with Israel? They would rather kill every single non-muslim in there, even if they gave them back the land.

I think Mr. Robert Pape knows more about this conflict than you do. I think you are misguided, misinformed, and you would do better to provide another "Experts" opinion instead of trying to pretend like you know more than Mr. Robert Pape.

[amgdriven]

I dated this Jewish girl in my Junior year in high school......damn she was hot. She would put her legs behind her head and......

[cte430]

Was trying to listen to something but the wife was yapping in the background and couldn't really listen. Anyway, I thought I heard a commentator say the muslims were thrown out of Spain in 1492 (approx.) and one of the radical spokespersons says they now want Spain back?! Or the Muslim part that is now Spain. Is this true? It sounded like his point was that Israel is just an excuse and if it didn't exist they'd find something else to hate on.

[Spartan]

Originally Posted by revstriker

Ahh, got it. My bad. I took it as a literal comment. I didn't make the connection with the .

My appologies to Spartan.

30 whacks for failing to detect sarcasm!

I belong in several forum and "Jew hating" has become a sport. It's amazing what one can read when some morons hide behind a monitor and spew. I have no problem with "anti-Zionist" opinions or criticizing the Israeli government actions but to devolve to "the Germans missed a few" is beyond reprehensible.

[Stander]

Originally Posted by revstriker

There can never be a zone large enought to completely protect you from your enemies, but there certainly can be an area big enough to improve your security. Certainly there is strategic imporatance in the positions Hezbollah has taken in the south of Lebanon. This equals increased risk for Israel.

Israel's search for security only brings it greater insecurity. Those positions are of mere tactical importance; good relations with its neighbours is of strategic importance.

Originally Posted by revstriker

Oh, you mean the Israeli airstrikes that were in "retaliation" for Hezbollah invading their country and killing and kidnapping their soldiers??

Israel invaded Lebanon and "kidnapped" and "killed" many more in 1982. There is no international statute of limitations on that...

The legacy of the Zionist founders of Israel is that the state is always at war in some form or another. I don't see how terrorists who now have uniforms, and a professional structure, can expect to have the moral highground except on CNN.

[Spartan]

Originally Posted by cte430

Was trying to listen to something but the wife was yapping in the background and couldn't really listen. Anyway, I thought I heard a commentator say the muslims were thrown out of Spain in 1492 (approx.) and one of the radical spokespersons says they now want Spain back?! Or the Muslim part that is now Spain. Is this true? It sounded like his point was that Israel is just an excuse and if it didn't exist they'd find something else to hate on.

Something to the effect of establishing the Muslim world "from Spain to".

Who cares what this moron says.......every nutcase hater seems to have a platform these days.

[Spartan]

Originally Posted by Stander

Israel's search for security only brings it greater insecurity. Those positions are of mere tactical importance; good relations with its neighbours is of strategic importance.

.

Seriously? When their neighbors ultimate goal is to eliminate them, their only reasonable defense is to have a powerfull military and WMD's.

Didn't you get the memo from Ahmadinejad office? Here it is the latest catch phrases in case you missed it.....“Israel should be wiped off the map”, "Israel pushed the button of its own destruction".

I read somewhere that Israel has at least 30 nukes aimed at Iran and at least another hundred aimed at EVERY mahor Arab capitol and major city. In light of what Ahmadinejad said and the resolute determination of Iran acquiring WMD's. I call Israel's strategy very sound.


.

[rstone]

Originally Posted by revstriker

Mine is in real life. :

Yours expertise is in "Cut and Paste" from Wikipedia. Thanks for the verbatim plagiarism though, it was if not completely lacking some historical facts, but then again who said one needed to be an expert on the Middle East to post misleading information on Wikipedia.

[rstone]

Originally Posted by Spartan

Seriously? When their neighbors ultimate goal is to eliminate them, their only reasonable defense is to have a powerfull military and WMD's.

Their neighbors?? Lets quit with the exaggerations and the FOX news propaganda.

This is about land, plain and simple. While I can't speak for Iran's motives... Syria, Lebanon, Palestine are all willing to co-exist if Israel is willing to resolve all if its neighbors land disputes and have stated as such publically on several occasions.

[ShazAMG]

Wow, the thread has come a long way, sorry Rev I can’t stop, I’ll be back on Sunday, inshallah! May Peace be with you all, Hey SLK320 Publicly Humiliate, Where’s my FoxNews Link?

Peace, Propaganda and the Promise Land, highly recommended.

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?...&q=promiseland

[revstriker]

Originally Posted by rstone

Yours expertise is in "Cut and Paste" from Wikipedia. Thanks for the verbatim plagiarism though, it was if not completely lacking some historical facts, but then again who said one needed to be an expert on the Middle East to post misleading information on Wikipedia.

Oh please..... And your cut and paste describing the 1948 Arab-Israel War was not "completely lacking some facts" such as the war itself??

[revstriker]

Originally Posted by rstone

Zero incentive?? I don't call full recognition and peace "ZERO incentive."

And his word is about as good as yours. The facts remain that he is powerless to make those promises, and as the quote from Hezbollah shows, they will not stop.

First, Hassan Ezzedin is a spokesperson and not the leader. Second, that statement backs Mr. Robert Pape's conclusion that this conflict is solely over land disputes.

Well OF COURSE it's over land! They want the Jews out of the Middle East and they won't stop until they either get that, or they get beat.

[rstone]

Originally Posted by revstriker

Oh please..... And your cut and paste describing the 1948 Arab-Israel War was not "completely lacking some facts" such as the war itself??

Its convenient how you fail to mention that the British Mandate was illegal in the first place. Also the mandate for a Israel nation in Palestine was made by a) by a European power, b) about a non-European territory, c) in flat disregard of both the presence and wishes of the native majority resident in that territory, who at the time happen to be Palestinean.

In 1948, at the moment that Israel declared itself a state, it legally owned a little more than 6 percent of the land of Palestine...After 1940, when the mandatory authority restricted Jewish land ownership to specific zones inside Palestine, there continued to be illegal buying (and selling) within the 65 percent of the total area restricted to Arabs.

Thus when the partition plan was announced in 1947 it included land held illegally by Jews, which was incorporated as a fait accompli inside the borders of the Jewish state. And after Israel announced its statehood, an impressive series of laws legally assimilated huge tracts of Arab land (whose proprietors had become refugees, and were pronounced 'absentee landlords' in order to expropriate their lands and prevent their return under any circumstances).



Lets also not forget that the Palestineans did not declare war in 1948 against the Israeli's and took no part in that war, but yet they were EVICTED from there homelands by Israel. The Palestineans had no weapons or armies to defend itself with as the British had already destroyed any such ability by them to resist. The British Mandate only allowed the Israelis to be armed, which was a major objection by the Palestineans.

Gandhi said it best...

"Palestine belongs to the Arabs in the same sense that England belongs to the English or France to the French...What is going on in Palestine today cannot be justified by any moral code of conduct...If they [the Jews] must look to the Palestine of geography as their national home, it is wrong to enter it under the shadow of the British gun. A religious act cannot be performed with the aid of the bayonet or the bomb. They can settle in Palestine only by the goodwill of the Arabs...As it is, they are co-sharers with the British in despoiling a people who have done no wrong to them. I am not defending the Arab excesses. I wish they had chosen the way of non-violence in resisting what they rightly regard as an unacceptable encroachment upon their country. But according to the accepted canons of right and wrong, nothing can be said against the Arab resistance in the face of overwhelming odds." Mahatma Gandhi

[rstone]

Originally Posted by revstriker

And his word is about as good as yours. The facts remain that he is powerless to make those promises, and as the quote from Hezbollah shows, they will not stop.

The President of Syria is powerless to offer full recognition and peace?? Maybe you missed the memo, but Syria controls Hezbollah. I think Syria is VERY MUCH capable of making good on its promises if he chooses to.

Originally Posted by revstriker

They want the Jews out of the Middle East and they won't stop until they either get that, or they get beat.

Thanks for the FOX news headline...

The fact is that I have shown repeatedly that Syria, Lebanon, and Palistin is willing to co-exist with Israel if it recognizes its illegal occupation and withdraws from the disputed territories. What part of that don't you get???

[AMGod]

Originally Posted by rstone

Since your such an expert and know more than Mr. Robert Pape, would you care to share with us what your Ph.D is in??

I just spent two months neutralizing Iranian Republican Guard advisers along with Al-Sadr's best guerrillas in Iraq. I bet Dr. Pape has never killed or even met an Islamofascists all pumped up for jihad face to face. They inject a form of methamphetamine so they can fight all night. These people are fanatic savages. Mr. Pape would fill his shoes with urine if I ever took him on the lightest operation of recent history. Again, there are the academics who wish to create reality from behind a desk. Then, there are those who change reality for the better HAVING ACTUALLY PARTICIPATED IN IT. You're welcome.

I'll let the academic experts debate the topic. See Kramer's critique of Pape's botched theories. V

(Robert A. Pape is Professor of Political Science at the University of Chicago. He received his Ph. D. from the University of Chicago in 1988 and graduated summa cum laude and Phi Beta Kappa from the University of Pittsburgh in 1982. His current work focuses on the causes of suicide terrorism and the politics of unipolarity. )

Dr. Pape concludes that the U.S. can defuse suicide bombs by following a policy of offshore balancing. The problem is that the Persian Gulf is massively unbalanced, in military capabilities, wealth, and population. Only U.S. intervention or the threat of it keeps the region on an even keel. However far offshore the United States decides to stand, it will face a globalized jihad as long as it maintains the region’s precarious balance. The only way to apply a brake to suicide terrorism is to undermine its moral logic, by encouraging Muslims to see its incompatibility with their own values.

[Martin Kramer]

(Dr. Kramer earned his undergraduate and doctoral degrees in Near Eastern Studies from Princeton University, and another graduate degree from Columbia University.)

http://www.washingtoninstitute.org/t...5.php?CID=2401

Peacemakers will inherit the Earth. Peacelovers will die self righteous, stupid, and wrong in the aftermath.

[Spartan]

Originally Posted by rstone

Its convenient how you fail to mention that the British Mandate was illegal in the first place. Also the mandate for a Israel nation in Palestine was made by a) by a European power, b) about a non-European territory, c) in flat disregard of both the presence and wishes of the native majority resident in that territory, who at the time happen to be Palestinean.

In 1948, at the moment that Israel declared itself a state, it legally owned a little more than 6 percent of the land of Palestine...After 1940, when the mandatory authority restricted Jewish land ownership to specific zones inside Palestine, there continued to be illegal buying (and selling) within the 65 percent of the total area restricted to Arabs.

Thus when the partition plan was announced in 1947 it included land held illegally by Jews, which was incorporated as a fait accompli inside the borders of the Jewish state. And after Israel announced its statehood, an impressive series of laws legally assimilated huge tracts of Arab land (whose proprietors had become refugees, and were pronounced 'absentee landlords' in order to expropriate their lands and prevent their return under any circumstances).



Lets also not forget that the Palestineans did not declare war in 1948 against the Israeli's and took no part in that war, but yet they were EVICTED from there homelands by Israel. The Palestineans had no weapons or armies to defend itself with as the British had already destroyed any such ability by them to resist. The British Mandate only allowed the Israelis to be armed, which was a major objection by the Palestineans.

Gandhi said it best...

"Palestine belongs to the Arabs in the same sense that England belongs to the English or France to the French...What is going on in Palestine today cannot be justified by any moral code of conduct...If they [the Jews] must look to the Palestine of geography as their national home, it is wrong to enter it under the shadow of the British gun. A religious act cannot be performed with the aid of the bayonet or the bomb. They can settle in Palestine only by the goodwill of the Arabs...As it is, they are co-sharers with the British in despoiling a people who have done no wrong to them. I am not defending the Arab excesses. I wish they had chosen the way of non-violence in resisting what they rightly regard as an unacceptable encroachment upon their country. But according to the accepted canons of right and wrong, nothing can be said against the Arab resistance in the face of overwhelming odds." Mahatma Gandhi

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Originally Posted by rstone

The fact is that I have shown repeatedly that Syria, Lebanon, and Palistin is willing to co-exist with Israel if it recognizes its illegal occupation and withdraws from the disputed territories. What part of that don't you get???

Define "disputed lands". You think that it's just a matter of Gollan heights and Shebaa farms? Think again. The other night, Queen Noor of Jordan, a "moderate" was talking about "resolving" the conflict by looking back to 1948.

Why 1948? Why not 1250? And if you are looking for cause, why not the Hebron massacre?

And as for this "FOX news headline". That's rich, particulaly when you are copying and pasting form another site and presenting it as YOUR "well informed" opinion.

http://www.washington-report.org/jew...e/mandate.html

http://www.cactus48.com/mandate.html

http://adofo.wordpress.com/2006/08/0...-one-of-two-2/

http://www.the7thfire.com/new_world_...l_conflict.htm


.

[AMGod]

Originally Posted by Stander

Actually the "Islamofascists" respond to having their lands returned and having their unlawfully imprisoned kin returned to them.

This crisis is far too complicated for a single post, but such black-and-white viewpoints such as yours are part of the problem not the solution... unless you are prepared to personally murder every Palestinian, Syrian, Iranian, and Lebanese person, but I don't think you are.

When has diplomacy and compromise with Islamofascists benefited Israel? Never. 13,000 rockets and a well trained dug in guerrilla armies with six years of preparation under their belt. Ever been mugged? That is their mentality. Diplomacy will not lessen the violence. Perhaps you should volunteer as a mediator and put your money where your mouth is.

Fact: A dead terrorist cannot make terror anymore.